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Hello, I'm new

Yeah- KYH is absolutely right... gender roles are a very interesting thing. Everyone knows that basically there was once a logical reason for many of the role assignments, 'tho even generations ago there were those of both sexes who enjoyed doing and had a talent for tasks more often traditionally assigned to members of the opposite gender (or those who took on these non-tradtional duties out of necessity). There have always been men who enjoyed sewing & needlework, women who chopped wood & played sports... then there are men who wore aprons & cooked casseroles when dear wife passed away- or the widow who cut the grass & winterized the house when her man left. And we humans being the goofy creatures we are- often we've been hesitant to behave ourselves and just accept it properly.

Hell, everything is or has been impacted by it: household chores, career-paths, marriage ceremonies, gifting traditions, medicine, clothing one wears, toys a child plays with, wall/paint color, furniture styles & room-decor, hairstyles, academic/military opportunities, politcis & voting, toiletry products, advertising, music/movies/media, even buriel/coffins & tombstones!

All of us, simply by virtue of our sex, have extensive unique experience with many aspects of this. And then the many other things that contribute to our views like: age, families, our physical bodies/genitalia, conditioning, regional origin, national origin, religion, economic staus, occupation, sexual orientation, etc. all offer an affecting component to the whole mix as well.

I have certain gender-role mind-sets that are impacted by the fact that I'm male, 41 years old, caucasian, gay, a mid-westerner/an Alaskan/an American, a chef, I'm large-bodied, I'm single, etc. SO much plays into it all.

My 65 yr. old Dad was raised in the south, left school in 8th grade, and has lived his adult life in the rural heartland. He retired from factory work and he also worked on farms seasonally. He's also re-married to a staunch Baptist- and all of these things affect him and his habits and his expectations of gender. His wife fixes his plate at meal-time as he sits and waits. He would no sooner lift a finger to wash a pot or mop a floor than the man on the moon. When I was growing up my Mom washed his hair at the kitichen sink once or twice a week. But, before you think he's nasty and lazy, in my Dad's household he has tasks that he considers his own that he would never expect a woman to perform, like mowing the yard, vehicle-maintanence, manning the weber grill, roofing the garage, taking out the trash, fixing the leak in the sink, and working outside the home.

I get perhaps the most insight into gender roles from my sexual orientation. When two folks of the same sex co-habitate, there is a whole different dynamic- that at the same time, is not different at all! In households with two males- laundry still needs done- as does cooking, patching jeans, and other tasks at times considered "feminine". And while to some, the logical thing within their mind-set is for any gay male to automatically absorb the duties and habits of the female, most know that this isn't actually how it's done at all. For every gay guy who lisps and color-coordinates the toilet-brush with the shower curtain, there's another who wears stripes w/ plaids and always has engine-crud under his fingernails from nasty auto mechanics! (Just as this reversed dynamic ALSO occurs within the hetero male/female world, mind you!)

Yep, it's very, very interesting stuff, alright! And it has both its virtues AND its limitations...
 
Two gender-specific rules I've long wondered about:

1. Where is it written that men take out the garbage?
2. What rulebook is it that says the toilet seat goes down?

In much of the rural south, nothing has changed in terms of gender roles. I'll never forget the first time we were invited to some friends; sophisticated and hip in all other ways. I was shocked when the women served the men, and then ate their meal in the kitchen.

But the feminists went too far, if you ask me. Men and women are different: physically, physiologically, psychologically, and how their thought processes work. The problem in the past was that "different" mean't better or worse. The fact is, though, different just means different.

But I know those libbers who insisted there were no differences have never been to the beach. As every Marine learns, to his chagrin, women can run gracefully through sand, whereas men---even men in very good shape---are hard pressed to even walk through it.
 
KYH, while I do think you are right that there are general differences between the sexes- I think it is wrong to presume differences and allow that presumption to affect opportunity. I believe people should be looked at in a gender-nuetral manner when considering most things. A woman deserves the chance to perform and excel on all fronts regardless of widely presumed and accepted views about her strength or endurance- afterall, there are many women out there much stronger than I. And the same goes with men. The gear one is born with between their legs should (in my mind) have no impact on the world's opportunities for them. I've seen far too many traditional presumptions proved wrong in my own personal experience. Denial of a job or other opportunity is fine if after the chance to qualify, one falls short. But one does not fall short simply by being one sex or the other. (Now get outta my way- I'm fixin' to go run in some sand on the beach!)
 
Equality of opportunity is one thing, Chubby. It goes without saying that I'm 100% for that.

But the idea that we are otherwise equal is nonsense. Even putting physical differences aside, men and women don't even think the same ways. Study after study has shown this. While a man and a woman might reach the same conclusion, they get there by totally different mental processes.

I sometimes wonder if we aren't actually two different species living in a symbiotic relationship???

My biggest gripe with the liberation movement is that it wasn't about human potentiality. It was about providing one gender rights and choices not available to all. The same exploitation of the majority used by every minority in the past half century. That just because I'm X you owe me.

I'm sorry if this bothers anybody. But the only group I owe is the people as Mastercard. I do not think that I owe you anything just because your great grandfather was a slave; or because Custer died for your sins; or, to put a point on it, because you happen to have breasts.

There were too many women, back in the day, who thought they were entitled to both my job and my seat on the subway. My attitude then (and now) is that they were welcome to one or the other. The latter was their's by right. The former had to be earned.

An interesting statistic, not bandied about on NPR. About 25% of sexual harasment cases are brought by men against women supervisors. An almost perfect correlation between the percentage of women in charge.

That's because sexual harasment isn't about sex. It's about power. And it seems the libbers were right after all. As soon as women get into positions of power they act just like men.

Now then, an interesting historical slant. Women being "subjegated" is a product of the 19th century. It it a by-product of civilization. On the frontier, or in any pioneering society, men and women are full partners. Is there role differentiation? You betcha. But nobody sees raising the kids as any different in value from hunting meat.

In short, loading the rifle was seen as equal in value to firing it at a hostile.

As the frontier gets settled, however, those gender-roles take on new meanings. Women are simultaneously reverred as goddesses and banned from certain opportunities because of their gender---eventually leading to the vapors of Victorian society, which actually controlled much of our society until fairly recently.
 
Wow you guys are deep...........

I do agree with KYH in the fact that just because I am female the world does not owe me!!! I love a gentleman that will open a door for me, and you know if I am walking thru a door first and a man is about to enter I will hold the door for him, or for anyone...woman, man or child it's called "common courtesy" and I love it, practice it and believe in it!
 
Yeah that whole "You Owe Me" mentality is goofy. I'm all for working hard and earning. I'm just all for people behaving and respecting. One of my pet peeves is poorly-behaved people.
 
Yeah! But, fortunately, we left them behind at the other site.

Of course, if you'd like a little excitment, I could invite D. and G. to come on over.....:rolleyes:
 
My youngest memories in the kitchen were of my Mom and her sisters at their Mom's making big family dinners. All of the men sat at the table and ate first then the women and kids ate second. I still catch myself jumping up at family dinners getting people drinks and anything they need. Jon talks about how old fashioned I am.
 
I kinda do the same thing, janie... I don't know if it's because I "serve" for a living and am used to it, so I just do it- or if it's my "inner-Virgo", or what. But I don't dole out attentions and favors in the kitchen/dining-room in response to people's genders- I pretty much spread the love equally.At least I think (hope) I do.
 
You know we Virgos live to serve! Also, when invited to a fun party we can always be found in the kitchen hand-washing glasses and bagging-up garbage! Hee-Hee!
 
I don't know if it's a virgo thing. I'm a gemini and do the same thing.
 
"Jon talks about how old fashioned I am."

When "old fashioned" comes up I'm always put in mind of the comic in Dirty Dancing.

"I finally found a girl just like my mother," he said. "She looks like my mother, dresses like my mother, cooks like my mother.

My father doesn't like her!"
 
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